Ellie Marron and Frank McCarthy told David Hennessy about Knuck and Knuckle, a documentary about boxing, grief and redemption featuring boxer Lee Reeves.
Short documentary film Knuck & Knuckle screened at Shout London which took place at the weekend.
The film tells the story of Lee Reeves and how the Limerick man uses his love of boxing to overcome the pain of losing his mother to suicide.
Reeves is now a keen advocate for boxing and sport, as tools for positive mental health for young men, particularly those from the traveller community where suicide rates are seven times higher than average.
Known professionally as El Champo, Reeves is currently the NABF light welterweight champion in North America.
With music artist Willzee in the role of interviewer, Knuck & Knuckle sees Lee speak openly about losing his brother when he was aged 11 and then his mother.
He speaks about his grief but also how he got involved with the Limerick Treaty Suicide Prevention and how, while working with them, he one night instinctively jumped into the Shannon river to save the life of someone who had given up. Furthermore that woman had jumped close to where his own mother committed suicide so he saved another family from the grief he knows about.
The documentary also includes some footage from a Paint Punch session.
Combining creativity and pugilism, Paint Punch was Frank’s idea and was inspired by young travellers’ love of boxing.
The Irish World spoke to director Ellie Marron (who co- directs with Sean Horgan) and producer Frank McCarthy who told us how the film came about.
Frank McCarthy told The Irish World: “We were working with young boys from the traveling community.
“I think we kind of landed on boxing because they’re always referencing it anyway and it’s just a passion of theirs.
“I suppose there was a particular age demographic that we weren’t working with that I was hoping that we could connect with and that’s from the ages 14 to 16.
“I was trying to think of a way that we could get them engaged and having conversations about mental health and how that would look.
“We previously worked on a project with Willzee.
“Initially my vision was to get in contact with some cousins of mine that were boxers and speak with them but Willzee had a relationship with Lee.
“And then Lee’s story, I suppose it kind of took off from there and it just it developed very naturally.
“Ellie done everything on the project.
“Ellie’s just brilliant and I really want to highlight that as well.”
Ellie Marron adds: “I heard Lee’s story and I was invested.
“I hadn’t met him before but as soon as we arranged those days to shoot and we met him, you’re in the presence of someone that’s really special.
“He’s had so many awful things happen to him and he’s overcome them but he’s just such a positive person and he radiates positive energy.
“We kept making a joke that he’s almost like an angel.
“I think we all were just so in awe of his presence.
“He spoke so eloquently, and told his story in such a way that it was really dark but it was super positive.
“He really just wants to help everyone that’s around him and make sure everyone is okay.
“I think that’s the main thing.
“Then when we were making the film, it just grew legs in so many ways because there was so many avenues we could have gone down.
“We had that one interview day and kind of wanted to see where we could take it from there but the story just grew and grew.
“We could have made a feature length film but I think we just wanted to focus on Lee’s story at the core and how he’s overcome his trauma and gives back to his community.
“We knew of his story.
“We kind of knew some elements that were a little bit more sensitive.
“Obviously he was speaking with Willzee, it wasn’t like we were interviewing him. They knew each other, they were really comfortable.
“He kind of started to mention things about his mum and he kind of turned to us and he was like, ‘How dark can I go?’ Or, ‘How personal do you want me to go?’
“And we just sat back and we were like, ‘Whatever you’re comfortable with saying, you can say’.
“We didn’t really intervene.
“We allowed the two to speak about whatever they wanted to speak about.
“Sometimes we’d kind of guide them in different directions.
“If we heard something we liked, we’d maybe try and get him to talk to it a bit more but he’s such an open book.
“Even when we sat down, I didn’t know the whole story about him saving someone’s life.
“Frank had heard about it.
“People in Limerick had heard about it.
“But I sat there and I was like, ‘I didn’t even realise this was a thing’.
“It was such a crazy story, it only happened the year previous: The fact that he had saved someone’s life in the same spot that he lost his mam.
“We were all just kind of shocked at how mad that was.
“It really did just feel like there was someone looking over him, it just felt like there was something, like his mam was on his shoulder. There was something there with him.
“He does radiate that kind of positive energy.
“Limerick Treaty Suicide Prevention are such heroes in Limerick.
“They walk around every night. They volunteer.
“They help so many people that are in dark places but they’re not trained to jump in and save someone, they’re just there to talk people down and help them calm down and show them a positive path.
“But the fact that Lee jumped in willingly to save this woman, he just didn’t even give it a second thought.
“Even himself he was like, ‘I don’t know why I did it. I just felt like there was something telling me that this is what I had to do’.
“When he mentioned something about it, I don’t think we were rolling at the time and we were like, ‘Hold on. If you wouldn’t mind, we’d love to include this’.
“Sean had the amazing idea to include it in an animation.”
Frank: “He saved somebody.
“I think that’s a poignant part is the fact that that place represents the most tragic thing that could possibly happen to anyone, and he willingly jumped right in to probably the place that symbolises the most hurt in the world for him to save another person.
“I think that’s really powerful and it speaks volumes about him and his character as a person.”
The film had already screened at major film festivals such as IndieCork.
Frank: “The response was really powerful.
“It touches on a lot of things even though it’s so short.
“Lee and Willzee have got stories that people can connect with.
“Lee’s story’s so vast.
“It’s mental health but cancer is part of the story.
“His mum was ill, so it touches on two very serious and tragic illnesses and things that can happen to people, probably the more scary things that can happen to a person.
“I suppose it’s affected a lot of people, then also the travelling community.
“90% of the traveling community have been affected directly by suicide, six times higher than the national average.
“I think his story just really resonated with people and there was a really powerful response.
“It touched on so many things and the response was really powerful from everyone in the room, it was amazing.”
And what was Lee’s own reaction been to it? It’s his story so I’m sure you wanted him to be pleased with it most of all..
Ellie: “He was really, really happy with it.
“Yeah, the fact that Lee is happy with it is the most important thing because it’s obviously such a personal story for him.
“To get his nod of approval was really, really important to us.
“He was definitely one of the first to see it before it was submitted anywhere.”
Shout London is a festival aiming to change the conversation around mental health.
What is refreshing about Lee’s story is although he is a tough man and a boxer, he is also unafraid and unashamed to speak of his grief and struggles..
Ellie: Absolutely. And I think as well even the fact that Lee was able to sit there and say, ‘I’m not an angel, I’ve done bad things. I wasn’t a good person when I was younger..’
“I feel like it’s a really admirable trait to own up to your faults and the fact that he was able to do that and show young men or young women that it’s okay to not be perfect and it’s okay to have your bad times and there’s still light at the end of the tunnel and there’s still room to grow and improve.
“Hopefully the people that are watching can relate to him so open and honest.”
Frank: “I think it’s really, really important, because in the age of the internet, you have got people like, let’s say Andrew Tate for instance, who aren’t the greatest influences.
“If we’ve more people in line with Willzee and Lee speaking in the way that they do, I think that can only cause for positive change and a big impact at ground level for young people.”
How did it feel to be asked to screen at Shout London?
Ellie: “I was really taken aback by the interest.
“It’s such an amazing thing to be part of such a special festival.
“Of course we love having it in film festivals but that was never the goal of the film.
“It was never the goal to get awards or anything.
“I think the fact that it’s being seen in such a special festival dedicated to mental health, openness and talking, it’s the perfect place for the film.”
Tell us more about Paint Punch, Frank. It combines art and boxing using boxing gloves dipped in paint to work out issues and create pictures. It is art and sport combined as a therapy..
Frank: “That kind of happened naturally through those workshops.
“Knuck and Knuckle is a testament to Ellie’s genius.
“It’s a conversation about mental health so let’s facilitate that and allow that to happen and sit down among friends and people that know each other and have this taboo thing, like a subject matter that can’t be touched, let’s just talk about it as we talk about everything else.
“I think that’s what made Knuck and Knuckle so powerful.
“Having that appreciation for allowing things to naturally happen is kind of how the Paint Punch developed.
“The lads’ passion for boxing just vibrated through them.
“So then we were like, ‘Okay, let’s use boxing and channel that through creativity in as many ways as we can’.
“We experimented with the Paint Punch project.
“We did the first workshop as kind of a pilot and that led to more interest.
“It’s become play therapy and it’s become like art therapy for a lot of the participants that we’ve worked with.
“We’ve worked with participants who’ve lost limbs and it’s been their reintroduction to boxing in a different capacity.
“We’ve had people who have lost children and we wouldn’t have known beforehand, it will just come up naturally afterwards. There will be a release. They might have been holding on to grief in in whatever capacity be it anger or sadness or frustration.
“I’ve seen also parents who got involved in the Paint Punch project.
“I’ve seen them kind of soften and collaborate with their own kids at the end of the project and stuff like that.
“It’s been amazing.
“It’s gone beyond all expectations since the first pilot workshop.”