Spider Stacy, Jem Finer and James Fearnley- three of the founding members of ‘the best band in the world’- told David Hennessy about their first UK headline tour in 13 years, 40 years since Rum, Sodomy and the Lash and getting back onstage without their friend and bandmate Shane MacGowan.
Next year will see The Pogues take on their first UK headline tour in 13 years.
It will, of course, also be their first without Shane MacGowan who passed away last year.
Massive demand has already seen an extra date added in Glasgow.
The news follows the band reforming in May of this year to mark 40 years since their debut album, Red Roses for Me at Hackney Empire.
The band are now set to tour their sophomore album Rum, Sodomy and the Lash to mark four decades since the album that boasted greats like A Pair of Brown Eyes and Dirty Old Town. Rainy Night in Soho was also included as a bonus track on a 2005 reissue.
Released in 1985, Rum Sodomy & the Lash is a touchstone album in punk and alternative rock, known for its raw energy, poetic lyrics, and infectious melodies.
Ranked among Rolling Stone’s Best 500 Albums of All Time and featured in such tastemaker books as 1001 Albums You Must Hear Before You Die; Rum Sodomy & the Lash is a certified classic which has influenced countless artists globally and continues to impact listeners 40 years on.
Original members Spider Stacy, James Fearnley, and Jem Finer will be joined by ‘special guests’ to take on the role of vocalist.
The Irish World caught up with Spider, James and Jem to look ahead to next year’s tour.
How does it feel to be looking forward to a Pogues tour after so many years?
Spider: “It’s all been a bit unexpected really, but it’s great.
“Obviously there are people we wish could be with us but who are unavoidably detained.
“But it’s great to be able to do it.”
Jem: “It’s funny to think of it as a Pogues tour because it kind of is and it kind of isn’t.
“So there’s been debates about how to bill it and I think it’s been billed quite well on the posters because it’s sort of a celebration of the Pogues and Rum, Sodomy and the Lash, rather than explicitly saying it’s the Pogues.
“But it’s definitely the spirit of The Pogues and we’re three of the founding members of the Pogues so we have every right to take such a thing on tour and as has been proven by the Red Roses for Me concert that we did, it works.
“The spirit is there and it’s not us saying that, it’s the response of the audience and everyone else.”
Announced special guests with the band have included members of bands such as The Scratch, Fontaines DC and The Mary Wallopers.
Spider: “It’s great having all these newer, younger people coming along and playing these songs with us, who are people who’ve been listening to us as they were growing up and just who really love the songs and just play them with such passion and feeling.
“The Red Roses show in London was just such a brilliant, brilliant evening and I’m sure the Dublin one is going to be as well, doing something similar for Rum, Sodomy and the Lash was always really a no brainer.
“It had to be done and I’m really happy that we’re doing it and I’m really looking forward to it.
“I think it’s going to be great.”
What are your memories of making Rum, Sodomy and the Lash? Does it seem like 40 years ago?
Jem: “It does and it doesn’t.
“Time is a funny thing.”
Spider: “Yeah, intellectually you know that it’s been 40 years but it kind of feels like something that happened a few weeks ago at the same time.”
Jem: “The structure of time is an endlessly fascinating subject.
“I don’t think anyone’s really got the definitive answer.
“How we experience time is mysterious and, in a sense, it does seem like it was only yesterday, maybe it was.”
James: “Or We could be doing it tomorrow.”
Spider: “It is weird.”
Did you know how special a record it would be when you were making it?
James: “No.”
Spider: “Yes.
“Seriously, in a way, yes because I remember the first time I heard The Sick Bed of CúChulainn.
“It was just a very rough demo version that the band had done at a rehearsal that I had missed.
“I heard it.
“I think we were in Sweden and we were driving from one gig to another and somebody put it on in the cassette player in the van, and it was just astonishing.
“I’d had the thought sometime before that that we might be the best band in the world.
“I thought we were the best band in the world.
“A lot of people, I guess, probably say that to themselves but there’s a difference between saying that to yourself and, actually this sounds really big headed, on some level knowing it and it being true.”
James laughs at this and says something we can’t quite catch about Spider getting carried away.
“And you’re too modest, James.
“It’s not about us all being the best musicians or anything like that at all.
“It’s just as a band producing the sound that we produce, the way that we interact well.
“How else are you going to define it? What else establishes a band as the best band in the world?
“I mean several, many bands can be the best band in the world all at the same time but it requires a certain number of things to happen in alignment and I think we had that, and I would stand by that.
“I’ve seen a couple of programmes about, and I’m not gonna mention any names, but documentaries or things about bands and I’m watching them sort of going, ‘But you’re just not very good’.
“I’m thinking, and this sounds horrible, ‘You do your rehearsals and all the time, you must know that you’re not actually very good, that your songs are sh*t’.”
James: “They think they are (the best band in the world).”
Spider: “But they can’t actually believe that they are.”
James: “They think they are but they’re wrong.”
Spider: “Yeah, but they’re wrong.”
James: “You have to go and tell them.”
Spider: “No, no, no, they’ll find out for themselves in time.”
Jem: “It would seem to be evident by now that-“
Spider: “We actually are.
“I knew this.”
James: “You were right.”
Spider: “I was right.”
James: “You were prescient.”
Spider: “Yes, thank you. Thank you. Prescient.”
Jem: “I had a similar thing with A Pair of Brown Eyes: The most amazing thing I had ever heard.
“It was something I’d never heard before but at the same time, it was something I really knew.
“It just felt so old and so now all at the same time.
“It had an incredible quality.”
James: “I’d say the same thing about The Old Main Drag and when I first heard that, ‘How does he even put that together?’”
Spider: “It’s true of a lot of them.
“The broad Majestic Shannon.”
James: “Oh my god, yeah. They keep coming.”
Spider: “He wrote so many utterly incredible songs.”
James: “But it wasn’t just the writing, it was the playing. We didn’t f**k them up.”
Spider: “It was the feel of them.”
Jem: “The core of it was the writing and the singing. It was amazing.
“What could be better than that?”
Would you believed it if someone told you back then that you would be marking the album forty years later?
Spider: “On reflection, yes.”
James: “In hindsight, yes.”
Spider: “I would have.”
Jem: “It’s a difficult one.
“At the time I couldn’t imagine this far forward.
“Looking back, I can imagine.
“But then it wouldn’t have even crossed my mind to think of being this age.
“I’m a pensioner.
“How can you conceive of being a pensioner? A pensioner’s an old bloke.”
Spider: “We were old blokes when we started.”
Jem: “I don’t think so, I couldn’t conceive of such a thing.
“And why would you want to? Why would you want to think, ‘Wow, in 40 years, people are going to be saying, ‘This is a really good album’.’
“We want them to like it now, not in 40 years’ time.
“It is a bonus if they do.”
Is it emotional? You say there are people you wish could be with you, is it bittersweet in that sense?
Spider: “Hackney, one of the things that really stood out about May was that, although Shane wasn’t there, the whole energy and the vibe of the night was very reminiscent of an early Pogues show as opposed to something that happened during the reunions, for example or even, indeed, a later Pogues show like in, say, ‘87, ‘88 something like that.
“There was this freshness and an energy about it and an excitement that was just really beautiful actually.”
Jem: “It felt like he was there.”
Spider: “It did feel like he was there.”
Jem: “And it was definitely celebratory rather than memorializing.”
Spider: “It was a more of a celebration than a eulogy.”
Was it something like the spirit of his funeral that you played at and was an incredible celebration?
Spider: “Yeah, obviously a funeral is also a time for mourning and for grief but I think it’s important that you can’t go on grieving and mourning forever.
“I think that it’s important that the celebration comes in as well as that’s the way these things are done and the way they should be done.
“So one of the things about Hackney that I really liked was that there was nothing in any way maudlin about it at all.
“It was just a really great night and a real ferocious celebration of the songs and of Shane and of the band and all of us, of life.”
There was such a wide outpouring of grief when Shane passed in November last year, was it a comfort to you as his bandmates to see how much he meant?
Spider: “I don’t know that comfort is entirely the right word but it was really remarkable.
“It was really moving just to see the impact that he had had, how much he meant to people, how affected they were by his passing, what he had given them and also by extension that we had given them.
“When my wife and I arrived in Ireland, it was just apparent from the off that the country was in the mood and it was like a state funeral.
“But certainly people’s reaction to his passing- And not just in Ireland either, not just the UK, it was across the world- was amazing.”
James: “To be on the altar steps with our friend in the box and playing to him a song was overpowering for me.
“It was amazing to be able to do.”
Do you think Shane himself knew how influential or inspirational he was?
Spider: “Yes.
“I think he absolutely did.
“I really hope so.
“I’m sure he did.
“He knew his own worth.”
Jem: “He was a pretty humble guy.
“He wasn’t going around sort of saying, ‘I’m the greatest’, but I think you got the impression at times. Things would slip out.”
Spider: “Yeah, he had no illusions regarding his talent.
“I don’t think he suffered from any doubt about that.”
Jem: “He didn’t feel the need to go around blowing his own trumpet.”
Do you think he enjoyed fame?
Jem: “No. I don’t think he enjoyed it at all.”
Spider: “When he finally called a halt to the reunions it was in 2014 in a hotel room in Tokyo and he went, ‘It was only meant to be one Christmas, it’s been 14 years!’
“He loved it sometimes but I think a lot of the time he’d have been quite happily anywhere else, often he was.
“But we were always able to build a bridge and lead him back over it. Most of the time.
“Sometimes he didn’t want to come, of course.”
You mentioned Christmas and your special Christmas concerts there.
It’s not part of Rum, Sodomy and the Lash or Red Roses For Me but will Fairytale of New York be getting an airing or is that too tough to do without Shane?
Spider: “Do you seriously think that we’d be able to get away with going to Dublin and not playing Fairytale of New York? I don’t see it.
“If there’s a piano, it’s on.”
Jem: “I don’t think we’ll be playing it in May next year.
“That’s unfortunately almost as far away from Christmas as you can get.”
James: “Yeah, we’re going to be doing our spring songs.”
Back to Rum, Sodomy and the Lash, are the memories of that album among your fondest Pogues memories?
Spider: “Like everything, it’s all great until things start going wrong.
“From around the time that (If I Should) Fall From Grace (with God) came out we were touring, touring, touring and I think that really put an awful lot of pressure on people, put an awful lot of pressure on Shane.”
James: “I think we already were (under pressure), way before that.”
Spider: “Well, yeah but it seemed to intensify.”
Did it get a bit much being on the road as much as you were?
James: “Well, it could do.
“I mean, I always enjoyed playing live.
“I really did enjoy it and I still do but it can get punishing after a while where you’re physically tired and you f**king hate the people that you’re with.”
Spider: “Thank you very much, we used to have meetings to say what a pleasure it was to have you around, how glad we were that you had joined the band.”
James: “You know, the confinement and the continuous movement day after day, it can wear a bit thin.”
Jem: “Well, I have to say that this question has very different answers for different people because it depends on your circumstances.
“For me it was very hard most of the time because I had this young family back home in London and so by turns I’d feel guilty I wasn’t there helping out and at the same time, I loved playing the music.
“So there was two sides for me.
“There was a bit of stress and missing people and enjoying myself all at the same time and getting back and being relieved.
“But then somehow the tours would always get longer than they were meant to be and I found it a bit difficult.
“In a sense, it’s an ideal vocation for someone without a family, you could have the life of Riley.
“It was difficult, I do think in the end it started to catch up with everyone, certainly with Shane and it was not good.”
In 1991 the band sacked Shane MacGowan after some erratic behaviour.
For a time he would be replaced by former Clash frontman Joe Strummer and then Spider Stacy was take over as frontman.
Eventually the band would split and not reform, complete with Shane, until 2001.
Do you ever look back and say ‘what if?’ As in, ‘what if we had kept the band together and kept Shane involved with the Pogues?’
Spider: “It was just in the nature, I think.
“I mean, there’s a case to be made that if we had taken a break around 1990, the time that we had to let Shane go rather than doing that.
“But that’s all very well saying that now.
“When you’re there in the moment, it would have been a difficult thing to do.
“I don’t think it would have ever occurred to anybody to think about it.”
James: “I think we were in a difficult contractual situation as well.
“We couldn’t really stop because we had these obligations we had to sort of see out.
“I think the time to have taken a break would have been before that, maybe after Fall from Grace (1988).”
Jem: “But we were actually in a real jam even then with obligations that we were being forced to go touring to pay debts that the band had and so we had got ourselves into a rather difficult situation and a very old school rock and roll situation which wasn’t entirely our fault.”
Are there plans for more gigs beyond these upcoming dates in the diary?
James: “Well, we’ve been joking all morning about getting to ‘the best of’ and then Waiting for Herb.
“I left the group by the time the Pogue Mahone record came out so I’m not expecting a phone call for that one but if they need me to tinkle on a piano or something, I’ll be happy to.
“That will be in twenty thirty something.
“They can bring me on in my iron lung or a wheelchair.”
The Pogues play the 3 Arena in Dublin on Tuesday 17 December.
The Pogues tour the UK with Rum, Sodomy and the Lash in 2025 playing O2 Academy in Leeds on 1 May, O2 Academy in Birmingham on 2 May, O2 Academy in Brixton, London on 3 May, Barrowland in Glasgow on 6 May, O2 Apollo in Manchester on 7 May, O2 City Hall, Newcastle on 8 May and an extra date added due to demand for Barrowland in Glasgow on 11 May.
For more information, click here.
